irc log 03.04.2002

br1.logger, 03.04.2002 21:11

the log of the irc meeting. topics .de mir migration, installation issues, cvs organization, support, i18n, producer, blocking bugs

[zert] hi
[zert] meeting in... 10 minutes?
[zert] ;)
[idefix] jepp
[zert] :)
[br1] here || silc ?
[idefix] we can do a agenda now
[idefix] here
[zert] ok
[idefix] is somebody logging?
[zert] mmmnop
[zert] i´ll have to go at mid-meetign
[zert] so better other candidate to log
[zert] O:)
[idefix] i will at 8 pm
[br1] ok im logging
[idefix] :)
[br1] me too
[rk] me too. so we should hold a consise meeting
[idefix] jepp
[rk] what´s on?
[idefix] ok agenda
[idefix] ?
[Zapata] it´s not time yet, right?
[idefix] but we can collect points
[Zapata] ok
[Zapata] I want to talk about producers a lot... getting updated about the i18n of them... and discussing how to embed them in the abstract factory concept...
[Zapata] further: versioning....
[zert] i want to talk about installing mir form scratch
[rk] ok
[zert] a good doc about it
[Zapata] and: I´d like to hear the german experiences with updating their site
[zert] and some ideas to .deb mir
[rk] oh my god :)
[idefix] i want to talk about producers, i18n
[Zapata] and: I´d like to hear what is going on in basque country
[Zapata] :-)
[zert] (we have debian developers at imc-euskalherria)
[idefix] :)
[zert] euskalherria == basque country O:)
[rk] huihui
[zert] it seem that will be a nice meeting :))
[idefix] so perhaps the euskalrherria-debian-developer can improve the debian-system itself
[idefix] :)
[zert] maybe, yes
[zert] buy by now eh-debian-developer is very... mmm sad? about mir installation
[zert] he thinks that is a bad nightmare
[Zapata] zert: he should have asked questions on mircoders
[zert] (sic)
[zert] :D
[rk] maybe he can write a mail to mir-coders ..
[zert] sure, but by now i´m "the bridge" between indymedia and the imc-eh-techies
[idefix] oki
[idefix] there are other sites starting working with mir
[zert] because thee techies of imc-eh are together in another group
[idefix] ecuador, brazil, switzerland
[Zapata] belgium is desparate to convert...
[zert] yes, that´s nice
[idefix] we have to discuss the supportpolicy
[Zapata] is switzerland already in the air?
[Zapata] I´m going to do the db conversion stuff...
[Zapata] but I need db dumps from them and others...
[idefix] ecuador is starting from scratch
[rk] ok, that should be possible
[idefix] switzerland will start as soon as possible so perhaps they will start from scratch too
[rk] one more minute :)
[zert] idefix that is celestial music for my ears :DDD
[Zapata] ok, but if switzerland will start from scratch it will be very hard (if not impossible) to import all the old articles again...
[idefix] jepp
[br1] ll
[br1] sorry
[idefix] lets start?
[Zapata] ok
[idefix] points?
Mode change "+oo br1 idefix" on channel #mir by Zapata
[idefix] agenda?
[Zapata] everybody knows everyone?
idefix has changed the topic on channel #mir to "mirc-coders-meeting"
idefix wonders: where is mh
[br1] well... not everone
[idefix] ok short introduction
[rk] ok, lets do a fast all at once intro
idefix mir-developer germany
rk is mir-coder / hamburg / nadir
[Zapata] I´m Max from Indymedia NL, mircoder
[br1] im bruno, starting mir developer / berlin
[rk] zert?
[Zapata] (zert is from basque country)
[idefix] ok
[rk] agenda?
[br1] i18n
[idefix] i have three points: producer, i18n, support
[rk] cvs strategy
[Zapata] and experiences from .de?
[idefix] ok
[rk] that´s it?
[idefix] blocking bugs
[br1] future (heard something about v 2.0 concepts)
[idefix] Warning: container not found for: messages@@webdb_create desc@0@10@storetype: class mir.entity.StorableObjectEntity@EntityList
[idefix] ObjectStore: java.util.MissingResourceException: Can´t find resource for bundle java.util.PropertyResourceBundle, key StoreContainer.Entity.DefaultSize
[idefix] ObjectStore: java.util.MissingResourceException: Can´t find resource for bundle java.util.PropertyResourceBundle, key StoreContainer.EntityList.DefaultSiz
[idefix] :)
sparky (~~ jirc@195-55-220-141.uc.nombres.ttd.es) has joined channel #mir
[idefix] hola sparky
[idefix] que tal
[sparky] hola, bien
[rk] sparky: please introduce.
Mode change "+o sparky" on channel #mir by idefix
[zert] sorry
[rk] br1 can we delay 2.0 when we all have more time?
[zert] zert, form IMC Euskal Herria
[br1] allright
[sparky] that´s right
[rk] ok: agenda: i18n, producer, support, relaunch .de, blocking bugs, cvs
[idefix] installtions
[Zapata] we should reverse the order?
[idefix] installtion
[rk] ok: agenda: i18n, producer, support, relaunch .de, blocking bugs, cvs, installation
[rk] maybe 3 minutes for .de experience first?
[Zapata] ok
[zert] i´d preffer to speak about installation sooner
[zert] because i have to go O:)
[idefix] oki
heckmann (~~ h@ns.merconic.com) has joined channel #mir
[heckmann] hi
[Zapata] ok, installation first then...
[zert] hi mark
[idefix] juhuuuu!
[Zapata] hi!!
[idefix] mh is in town
[heckmann] oops
heckmann is now known as mh
Mode change "+o mh" on channel #mir by idefix
[rk] ok: agenda: .de, installation, cvs, support, i18n, producer, blocking bugs
[rk] this way?
[Zapata] ok
idefix has changed the topic on channel #mir to "1.) de-experience"
[Zapata] perfect
idefix has changed the topic on channel #mir to "1.) de-experience"
[mh] realese planning?
[mh] release..
[Zapata] that´s in cvs right?
[idefix] yes
[mh] oh ja sorry
[rk] ok, let´s subsume it
[mh] subsume?
[rk] idfx: you start with .de
[rk] ?
[mh] ok starting
[mh] idfx?
[rk] go idfx:
[rk] 3 minutes :)
[Zapata] only 2 minutes left ;-)
[idefix] h
[idefix] hm
[idefix] de is now working on the cvs-version
[idefix] we had/have problems witrh media-producing/posting
[idefix] (and with our users)
[mh] there are no problems left in the media stuff. we only had real problems in RealMedia*
[idefix] but we have problems with posting
[mh] the other problems were related to having 2 copies of postgres.jar
[rk] relaunch was not properly announced to users, we worked on layout on running system.
[idefix] users complain ablut that
[mh] the remaining problem is the poolman.. it seems to have a race condition..
[idefix] another problem is the jai-integration
[mh] what about JAI?
[idefix] it was a problem
[rk] we had a database conversion done from postgresql 7.03 to 7.13 with around 15.000 articles and 50.0000 comments.
[Zapata] wow
[idefix] around 350 MB of data
[mh] as far as I understand it now. tomcat or JDBC extensions can do pooling and we should move to that as poolman is now un-maintained
[rk] scripts are lying around.
[rk] mh: are the conversion scripts in cvs?
[Zapata] ok, pooling=reusing db connections?
[mh] the conversion itself went well.. any way we hammered the scripts out a month ago.
[idefix] jepp
[mh] and keeping more connections around at standby
[idefix] kosmos is doing a good job
[Zapata] are these scripts in cvs?
[idefix] we are running it with tomcat 4
[mh] the scripts are maybe in CVS, don´t remember anymore..
[idefix] no they arent in cvs
[mh] I´ll check and commit if not
[Zapata] ok, great...
[idefix] they in your home mh
[Zapata] I need inspiration for conversion scripts...
[Zapata] :-)
[zert] :D
[idefix] btw: i installed ecaudor on mir too
[idefix] on kosmos too
[Zapata] ok...
[mh] I went over the code with a co-worker and we might have a race..
[Zapata] might there be place for belgium too on kosmos?
[idefix] yes
[zert] and basque-imc? O:D
[rk] i would consider code 90% / layout 80% / admin part 80% stable and 50% optimized
[idefix] yes
[mh] in the singleton modules when we access member objects.. (the ModuleContent, etc..)
[zert] kosmos go!
[Zapata] how about the bandwidth costs?
[idefix] 25Euro the gig
[Zapata] ok, how much will the load be? (approx per imc or so)
[idefix] imc germany is paying 50euro per month
[rk] bandwidth is big problem, the syncing only takes place with triple isdn, as far as i know.
[idefix] 19:19:12 up 13 days, 21:46, 6 users, load average: 0.47, 0.31, 0.22
[Zapata] ok, I read somewhere you also had problems with the jai lib...
[Zapata] and you placed in in common/lib
[rk] Zapata: bandwidth load is highly dependant on number of mirrors, and on amount of changes on the site.
[idefix] but if other imcs pay 20 euro too we can use the big line
[Zapata] I had to do place the jai lib there too for more than 1 mir...
[Zapata] ok, 20 euro should be doable I think...
[mh] Zapata: ja jai.. it needs to be in the common lib dir from tomcat.
[Zapata] ok, and we´re gonna do that with all the 3rd party libs?
[mh] I suppose, if they are common, they should go there too.
[rk] Zapata: we should.
[rk] we should consider recompiling some of the libs for performance (jikes)
[Zapata] ok... that´s all for .de migration?
[idefix] jepp
[mh] ja, freemarker being the most important
[rk] ja, let´s stop
[mh] it was a little rought but not all too bad considering..
[rk] any questions about the .de conversion?
idefix has changed the topic on channel #mir to "installtion-process?"
idefix has changed the topic on channel #mir to "installation-process?"
[mh] new machine, new software, new ip, new DB..
[zert] well...
[zert] there is no actuallizated doc about installation
[zert] we tried hard to install it from scratch
[zert] but we couldn´t tune it well
[Zapata] what did you do, and what didn´t work, zert?
[zert] it just worked but with a lot of bugs
[rk] :)
[zert] we download from cvs
[rk] that should stabilize now
[zert] stable version
[Zapata] (and in general I´d like to stress that you should ask questions in mircoders)
[zert] read the doc in mir/doc
[zert] complete it step by step
[zert] and not success
[zert] :D
[Zapata] ok...
[Zapata] what worked and what didn´t?
[zert] posting didn´t
[mh] the doc/INSTALL.mir file is usually up to date
[rk] but the cvs has no stable branch anymore
[Zapata] what kind of errors, zert?
[zert] mmmm it seems, mh, but no...
[zert] java errors almost
[Zapata] ok... next time post them to mircoders and let us look at them...
[zert] yes
[zert] but ...
[Zapata] you´re on mircoders I presume?
[zert] how can we install a mir box from scratch now?
[zert] yes, yes
[rk] i guess it was mainly a problem of giving up a stable branch. we had many many changes in the cvs..
[Zapata] rk: I think you´re right...
[zert] yes i saw
[zert] that´s no too... clear :D
[Zapata] so, we´re going to make sure we get stable stable versions...
[Zapata] and then you should try again...
[Zapata] and post problems to mircoders...
[rk] and in the meantime it was all buggy. we didn´t document when to make database changes, and so on
[zert] ok :)
[Zapata] does anybody feel the installation doc should be made more user-friendly?
[zert] we need a stable version soon
[Zapata] zert: we´ll work on it
[zert] because we need to stay in the air at end of may if possible
[rk] ok
[zert] and we are mir-newbies
[Zapata] hehe
[br1] yes, we should maybe make 2 different versions - one for dev and one for production
[zert] no so unix newbies
[idefix] if we have strctural database-changes we shlud provide conversion-scripts
[zert] postgres installation was very easy
[Zapata] idefix: right... part of a release procedure
[zert] and sucessful
[rk] and announce them in doc/changes and do more tagging for that purpose in the cvs
[idefix] and pehaps we should use ant to build the databse
[Zapata] hmmm...
[rk] should we discuss installation and cvs together?
[Zapata] but this is part of another agenda point right?
[idefix] the ant-sql-task is really cool
[zert] when a stable release will be at cvs?
rk has changed the topic on channel #mir to "installation and cvs ??"
[mh] idefix: I like that idea.. where can I find examples?
[zert] we want to pack it also
[idefix] jakarta.apache.org/ant
[mh] ok
rk has changed the topic on channel #mir to "installation, cvs, releases"
[Zapata] ok..
[zert] because installation is quite mecanic as it seems
[Zapata] question:
[zert] and could be automatized
[Zapata] is the current .de code branched/labelled?
[mh] I think it would be a good job for Mj. he seems to like ant.
[idefix] Zapata: no
[mh] Zapata: the .de code is evolving with current CVS.
[Zapata] idefix: suppose we work on mir now, and next week a bug pops up on .de... how are we going to find it?
[idefix] the most were chages in the core-layer
[mh] as soon as current CVS starts to become development again.. then we will have to branch a 1.0 tag with a stable brach
[idefix] agree
[Zapata] but...
[rk] well, we should branch the cvs soon in at least: 1.0stable and .de
[Zapata] look... there will be many mirs in the air soon...
[mh] rk: I would like .de to track 1.0stable :)
[Zapata] and they presumably will be running different versions...
[Zapata] we need to be able to reproduce those versions...
[rk] all new mir sites should branch of 1.0stable
[rk] ?
[Zapata] and thus need a branching and label policy....
[mh] and all those many mirs should stick with a stable branch/tarball. a la OpenBSD or FreeBSD
[idefix] yes now it is the right time to implement factories
[Zapata] mh: you can´t enforce people to stay up to date...
[rk] Zapata: right
[Zapata] we should have a latest stable version ofcourse
[mh] no they can do what they want :)
[Zapata] but we need to be able to go back to previous stable versions
[Zapata] and thus need branching and labelling of those...
[mh] which is why it is perfectly fine to stay at 1.0 tarball.. and NOT track the cvs branch of 1.0
[zert] will you try to install your stable version from scrach in a test machine?
[br1] i also think that having a branch for each and every imc running mit in the future is not necessary
[zert] it would help a lot to find installation bugs
[Zapata] zert: ofcourse...
[mh] br1: I agree.. that is not scalable
[Zapata] br1: I agree...
[zert] because i think that many installation errors are because you are forgetting old patches
[br1] it gets totally confusing
[Zapata] but we will have our own different versions...
[Zapata] and we should keep track of those...
[Zapata] and different imc´s will pick one of those...
[rk] zert: i would be good, if you installed from scratch again with the current cvs and report heavyly on mir-coders
[mh] Zap, if an imc wants to do that, they can check in their copy of Mir in a cvs tree.
[zert] sure rk :)
[idefix] but when we change the code in the way, that every imc can have its own package of producers etc
[rk] :)
[Zapata] mh: what do you mean?
[Zapata] ok... there´s the point of abstract factory stuff:
[mh] what do I mean with what?
[Zapata] [mh] Zap, if an imc wants to do that, they can check in their copy of Mir in a cvs tree.
[Zapata] what do you mean with "that"
[Zapata] abstract factories:
[Zapata] I would like to have the factories of the different imcs all in the mir source tree...
[mh] let´s say the start with the 1.0 stable *branch*. meaning not the 1.0 release tarball but the code that came out 2 weeks after.. also 1.0 plus fixes.
[Zapata] perhaps in directories like "www.indymedia.de", "www.indymedia.nl"
[mh] that is not precisely tagged in time in Mir cvs..
idefix thinks perhaps zap can talk about his proposal
[mh] but an imc who uses that can create they´re own CVS somewhere if they really want to have a tag.. but if they remember the *date* that they checked out their copy of CVS, that is always a valid tag.. in a CVS repo.
[Zapata] idefix: which one of my proposals? :-)
[idefix] factories
[Zapata] lets finish cvs first maybe?
[idefix] ok
[mh] can I propose something for CVS?
[Zapata] mh: btw did you read my releasing proposal?
[idefix] but perhaps it solves some cvs-problems too
[Zapata] hmmm... we´re being a bit chaotic now... :-)
[mh] yes.. but is was a while back.. I´ll have to re-read it
[mh] ok can I propose something now?
[Zapata] go ahead
[mh] 1. the HEAD branch is in feature freeze for now.
[mh] 2. we fix all remaining blocking bugs.
[mh] 3. this should take 1 week at the most
[mh] 4. we tag that as 1.0 and release a tarball.
[mh] 5. the STABLE branch starts at the 1.0 tag.
[mh] we continue to develop bleeding edge features in the HEAD branch
[mh] this is how projects like FreeBSD, OpenBSD, cyrus-imapd and others work..
[Zapata] well...
[mh] END
[Zapata] I don´t like freezing of head branches... except in emergencies..
[Zapata] why not just branch right now and fix blocking bugs on the branch...
[Zapata] ?
[Zapata] so I can develop further on head?
[idefix] agree
[mh] at some point the HEAD always has to be frozen before a _major_ release...
[Zapata] mh: disagree
[Zapata] at a major release we should branch
[zert] mmmmm i agree with mh
[Zapata] and then test the branch
[Zapata] and then fix the branch
[zert] now is a kaos, there is no stable branch
[mh] Zap yes I agree
[Zapata] that was the basic idea in my releasing proposal...
[mh] but moments *before* that major release.. we have to stop adding features and start debugging
[Zapata] yeah
[Zapata] but
[Zapata] I´d say
[zert] i´d like to have always a functional stable branch
[sparky] if we don´t freeze at one point it can´t be an stable release
[Zapata] HEAD should not be unstable...
[zert] and testing and coding in another one
[Zapata] please, not all at once... :-)
[mh] zert: the HEAD is the one of the most stable releases of mir ever. IMHO
idefix has to go in 13 minutes
[Zapata] idefix: abstract factories over mail?
[mh] zert they´re will always be a STABLE branch..
[idefix] hm
[Zapata] or we have to switch to abstract factories now...
[idefix] we have to have a cvs-strategy too
[Zapata] yeah
[Zapata] that´s more important imo
idefix thinks the factories will solve many cvs-problems
[mh] honestly I really don´t give a damn.. could we reconvene on this in a week or so.. in the meantime we should all take a look at how some other big successfull projects do it.
john ( foobar@node16617.a2000.nl) has joined channel #mir
[Zapata] hey john...
[john] hey, has the meeting started?
[rk] sounds good. but it is really urgent to advance in the whole issue.
[sparky] sorry, but I don´t undertand the concept of factories
[br1] mh: i think the way you outlined is ok
[sparky] is it related to cvs?
[Zapata] sparky: not really...
[mh] food for thought:  http://www.openbsd.org/anoncvs.html
[sparky] are factories a way of development?
[rk] mark, could you send a mail to mir-coders with the concept, and how to solve the problem of having a stable branch *now
[Zapata] sparky: but it allows for different imcs to have different features...
[rk] * and how to deal with the different imcs?
[idefix] may i?
[Zapata] go ahead
[idefix] ok
[rk] zapata, same to you?
[idefix] the idea is the following
[Zapata] rk: I´ll repost my proposals
[idefix] we define some interfaces for the parts of the code that are important
[idefix] for the localizing of the imcs
[idefix] for example producers
[idefix] all the layers that use the producers only hav a instance of an intetrface
[idefix] the real object behind the interface is inctanciated by a factory-class
knom ( foobar@node16617.a2000.nl) has joined channel #mir
[idefix] this class knows about the real classes
[idefix] and only this class
[idefix] knows this
[idefix] so every imc can code its own producers
[idefix] but the hole system doesnt change
[idefix] it is like in swing
[idefix] or other gui-components
[rk] sorry, but where are we, on producers now?
Mode change "+o john" on channel #mir by mh
[idefix] you can change all the apearance on one click
Mode change "+o knom" on channel #mir by mh
[idefix] rk: some imcs want to have newswires with all articles others only with op-articles
[idefix] for example
[rk] ok
rk has changed the topic on channel #mir to "producers"
[idefix] some imcs want to produce pdf and html other not
[idefix] and so on
[idefix] the same way could be good for the servlet-layer
[idefix]  http://www.dofactory.com/patterns/pattern_abstract.asp
[br1] factories are nice, but if you want to make bigger changes the imcs will probably need to touch some other code too...
[idefix] its an example in c#
[idefix] br1 i dont think so#
[idefix] br1 i dont think so
[br1] do you think this will be enough
[idefix] if the core-classes are genric enough
[sparky] ok, i´ll read it
[john] are people happy with the way i implemented pdf generation....or would this be somehting that would get moved off into this factory setup?
[zert] i have to go O:(
[Zapata] ok, bye zert...
[Zapata] keep in touch!
[idefix] john: yes
[zert] i´ll apreciate a log in  zert@int80h.net if possible
[rk] cu zert
[zert] :)
[zert] or at mir-coders
[zert] :)
[br1] zert: allright
[br1] ill post it on mircoders
[zert] thanks for all, bye
[idefix] logs please tomir.indymedia.de
[mh] zert: remeber to send mails to the lsit
[john] idefix-yes to which part?
[mh] lsit
[mh] list
[sparky] zert: see you!
[zert] mh~b:~b sure!
[Zapata] john: I´ll explain...
Signoff: zert (Client Exit: ~b[~bBX~b]~b OH SHIT!9)
[idefix] in future the pdf-feature should go to a producer in that way
[Zapata] john: the factory gives the option to include (or not include) pdf generation....
[rk] ok, we should do the switch of producers in a dev branch of cvs, maybe idfx can send around the concept first?
[Zapata] john: or to give the option to pregenerate the pdfs or have them on demand
[idefix] i will create some uml perhaps
[mh] br1: if you consider that we have ServletModules.. it easy to write your own.. that is a whole lot of flexibility..
[idefix] ?
[Zapata] idefix: I want to make a detailed proposal for the parts I want to do first in the abstract factory...
[idefix] ok
[Zapata] these parts are: producers and open postings...
[idefix] an admin?
[idefix] ans admin?
[idefix] and admin?
[mh] I like the idea of Abstrak factory´s for the Producer/presentation layer in any case..
[Zapata] a bit yeah, since with different producers the admin will be a bit different...
[idefix] my idea would be that we provide a standard-implementation
[Zapata] right...
[Zapata] a basic mir
[rk] config based features
[idefix] yes
[Zapata] but I want to have the different abstract factories in a single cvs
[idefix] for instance in the config:
[idefix] producer.layer=de.indy.producers
[Zapata] so we can reproduce different mirs
[Zapata] (if there are bugs for instnace)
[Zapata] ok..
[mh] I´d like to see all IMC specific stuff out of CVS..
[mh] or out of the main CVS at least
[idefix] or in localized cvs
[Zapata] I´d like to have them in... but organized...
[mh] ja..
[Zapata] I want to be able to switch to another imc easily...
[Zapata] so I can test, fix etc...
[idefix] by one click :)
[Zapata] lol, for instance
[br1] is that really necessary?
[rk] well, can we defer the discussion to the mailing-list and continue with the agenda? time is running up
[Zapata] ok
[Zapata] next item?
[mh] Zapata: well if all Abstract Factories, producers.. are shipped in their own JAR file.. and we can choose which one we use via the config file, that should be no problem
[rk] we still have support, i18n and blocking bugs
idefix has to go
[Zapata] ok... bye idefix!
[rk] buy!
[mh] bye
[br1] cu
idefix says: i18n can be a factoried feature too
Zapata agrees
[idefix] cu
idefix has left channel #mir
[Zapata] ok...
[Zapata] support...
[rk] who brought in that point?
[Zapata] idefix?
[rk] :)
[mh] ok.. i18n Producer output should definitly appear in the next release after 1.0 (minorrelease)
john_ ( foobar@node16617.a2000.nl) has joined channel #mir
[Zapata] skip support?
[rk] well, yes.
[Zapata] ok
john_ needed to switch computers
Signoff: john (Client Exit: Client Exiting)
[Zapata] about i18n:
Mode change "+o john_" on channel #mir by mh
john_ is now known as john
[Zapata] what has already been done on this point?
[Zapata] br1?
[br1] all templates are i18ned
[Zapata] that is admin, open posting, producer?
[br1] this means only, that i stripped all language specific strings out
[br1] yes
[Zapata] ok, and...
[br1] and put them into a resource bundle
[Zapata] suppose I want to make a new template for a whole new producer for my local imc...
[Zapata] can I use the resource bundle concept too easily?
[br1] then you have 2 options
[br1] either you only need one language: then you can go and make your template wtihout caring about i18n
[rk] sorry, i have to go...
[br1] bye
[Zapata] ok, bye rk!
[mh] (what we need is the ability to produce the site in multiple languages... that is the missing part)
[br1] i know
[Zapata] mh: hold on...
Signoff: rk (Client Exit: Client Exiting)
[Zapata] br1: and the other option?
[br1] but that can be done very easy with i18ned producer templates
[john] br:i´ve only seen the admin_*.properties in cvs...are those used for openposting as well?
[br1] other is: you need multiple languages
[br1] then you can use the mir templates and change them to your layout
[br1] including all i18n strings
[Zapata] ok, but my question is for a new template... you know a whole new kind specific to an imc...
[Zapata] is it possible to also include a resource bundle then?
[br1] sure
[Zapata] ok...
[Zapata] and now...
[Zapata] for i18n-ed producers...
[Zapata] have you already worked on this?
[br1] at the moment everything is in admin.properties which is bad
[br1] we need to split that
[br1] no.
[Zapata] ok, br1... that´s something I would like to do with you...
[br1] but it does not need very much changes
[Zapata] and include it into the abstract factory concept...
[Zapata] the idea now is to have the producers generate different "trees", right?
[br1] ok. if the temploates are i18ned the all the producer has to do is produce for every language it is configured for
[Zapata] and to a different destination directory...
[br1] yes, it think so. only comments should be common and influded in all files
[Zapata] br1: comments?
[br1] no :)
[Zapata] br1: have you ever looked at imc israel?
[Zapata] they have different frontpages for 3 languages...
[Zapata] but every article appears everywhere...
[br1] yes.
[Zapata] that´s what I am thinking of...
[Zapata] ok...
[br1] thats an open question: which articles are shown where. but
[sparky] israel uses mir?
[Zapata] no
[br1] that should be configureable
[sparky] irelands has an initial page to choose the languaje
[Zapata] br1: right... using the abstract factory... and extra settings...
[br1] yep.
[Zapata] ok...
[br1] i dont think its so much work...
[Zapata] anything else on i18n-ed producers?
[Zapata] br1: agreed
[sparky] wait
[br1] hows your translation going, zapata?
[sparky] I just want to ask where can I look for help about i18n ;-)
[Zapata] thanks to sharon and other people I haven´t gotten to it at all... :-(
[Zapata] sparky: what kind of help?
[br1] no prob, just curious for your feedback
[sparky] I just don´t know what i18n!
john has a turkish translator lined up
[br1] i18n is short for internationalization
[sparky] but I don´t want to tire you now
[sparky] I suppose, but I wold like to read about it
[mh] as a side not we have to i18n´ize the error msgs.
[sparky] is any documentation about it or not?
[mh] side note..
[Zapata] mh: very important yeah...
[br1] jes, all that is still missing
[Zapata] like the validation messages...
[Zapata] they should be translated...
[Zapata] br1: any clue on how to do that...
[Zapata] sparky: please ask me after the meeting...
[mh] Zapata: that is easy that is supported in standard java JDK..
[br1] its more or less the same as in the templates ;)
[br1] messages.get("error.nothing_found");
[br1] something like that
[br1] its just work. go thru all code and find messages. cut & paste into properties file
[mh] we just have to use it.
[sparky] ok (and sorry)
[Zapata] mh: elaborate?
[mh] Zapata: .properties files were created for that.. if you tell it to print messages using resource bundles
Signoff: knom (Client Exit: Client Exiting)
[mh] it´s different with the freemarker templates because we had to _expose_ that interface to freemarker to templates
[Zapata] br1, mh: are you talking about the same way?
[mh] in java code it´s easy to use
[br1] think so ;)
[mh] Zapata: yes
[Zapata] ok...
[mh] it´s what our i18n template mechanism uses at a lower level
[Zapata] so the same kind of resource file, but a different way to use them?
[mh] the same way... just not through the template :)
[Zapata] ok...
[mh] think if the template as a layer above it.
[mh] s/if/of/
[Zapata] ok.. clear...
[Zapata] so br1 will work on that too? :-)
[br1] btw we still need a good english translation
[br1] we can share the work ;)
[Zapata] will you do english mh? or should I?
[mh] we can all work on that once someone starts it.. i.e does it at one place so others can use it as an example
[mh] I´ll do whatever I happen to come across..
[Zapata] mh: but about the english language file? can you turn it into good english? (or should I, or john perhaps?)
[mh] I don´t think it has to be done on one full swoop (the error messages) it can evolve
[mh] Zapata: oh ok, I can do that ja :)
[Zapata] ok, great...
[br1] i´ll try to focus on the i18n stuff. mutilanguage producer is more urgent i think
[mh] br1: yes
[br1] than the error msgs
[mh] next topic?
[Zapata] flexible producers (including for i18n) is important...
[Zapata] but error messages are too..
[Zapata] we don´t want to see german messages on indymedia.nl
[Zapata] really...
[br1] yeah, we also need to rename some classes to english
[Zapata] br1: renaming classes should be done very conservatively... can potentially cause a lot of problems..
[br1] not with the right tools ;)
[mh] exactly.. it can evolve..
[Zapata] ok...
[Zapata] next topic?
[mh] what is it?
[john] rss support?
[mh] does anyone still have the topic list?
[sparky] blocking bugs...
[mh] ah thanx..
[mh] ya we´re going to have to replace the DB pooling mechanism again..
[mh] poolman seems to have a tiny bug..
[mh] and it´s now orphaned (poolman)
[mh] I think one can pool w/ tomcat or JDBC directly now.. does anyone know about that?
[Zapata] I don´t...
[Zapata] how urgent is this btw?
[br1] no sorry
[mh] ok I´ll look into it. hopefully it´ll be fixed and live tested within a week.
[Zapata] mh: there is a critical problem now with it?
[mh] it´s not so bad.. but occasionaly an article will have an extra media item attached.. from a concurrent upload..
[Zapata] ah
[Zapata] that´s bad...
[mh] but´s it´s only happened once or twice so far..
[mh] very rare..
[Zapata] ok
[Zapata] unrelated question: how are id´s generated right now?
[mh] the DB (postgres) gives the next available id..
[Zapata] ok...
[Zapata] so no problem possible with this...
[mh] using sequences.. and we get it from LAST..
[Zapata] ?
[Zapata] oh..
[Zapata] you do a select LAST or something like that to obtain the id just generated...
[mh] nope.. postgres does the right thing.. it´s poolman seems to not clear it´s result set.. there are some mail on the net.
[Zapata] ok...
[Zapata] more on blocking bugs?
[sparky] it seems no
[mh] oh and I need to add a couple of important features to the Media Admin stuff..
[Zapata] like?
[mh] and there are some missing comment admin features.. but RK is doing that
[Zapata] ok...
[mh] like viewing hearing the media item in the admin..
[Zapata] how far has "my" bug list been resolved btw?
[br1] btw2: i cant assign for the bugtracker
[Zapata] oh...
[mh] a number of them have been.. others haven´t but they are core to the producer which we plan on changing anyway..
[Zapata] hold on...
[Zapata] ok...
[mh] anyway you should try to re-produce them again w/ the current code
[Zapata] br1: you can assign now :-)
[Zapata] ok...
[Zapata] clear...
[Zapata] this was it for bugs?
[mh] yes..
[Zapata] ok...
[br1] good :)
[Zapata] no more point on our initial list?... so john can go on with RSS?
[mh] sparky? next topic?
[sparky] nooooo
[mh] none left?
[john] i just basically wanted to get some advice on rss implementation
[sparky] that´s enough for me!
[Zapata] ok, first what is RSS? :-)
[john] rss is rich site syndication
[sparky] I have to go
[Zapata] ok, bye sparky...
[sparky] see you in the list!
[sparky] bye
Signoff: sparky (Client Exit: Leaving)
[john] it is xml markup that makes it possible to suck headlines between sites
[Zapata] that´s related to what idefix talked about in berlin?
[mh] john: make an RSS producer..
[mh] what should be in the RSS? newswire or specials/features?
[mh] or all of the above?
[john] i want to make one definitely for features
[john] becuase there is a proposal on imc-global-lists
[john] to suck features from local sites and use them as the right hand newswire of www.indy
[Zapata] so an imc might flag features for sharing?
[john] it would be nice if mir was part of this framework
[mh] then make a generic/abstract RSS producer.. and have it called from the Startpage producer.. once or twice depending
[john] sounds good....i´ll get on it this week or so
[Zapata] ok, that´s it for RSS?
[mh] john: the problem with that is all imcs have to be in a central list of sites to suck from... ultimatly (it´s a long way off), it should be real peer-to-peer
[mh] john: look at the way I did ProducerMedia and then ProducerImages, ProducerAudio..
[john] yep, that´s all i have...i´ll try to be generic
[Zapata] ok...
[Zapata] that´s it?
[mh] oh and while we´re all here:
[mh] coding style!
[mh] could we please have spaces not tabs.. (for less, cat and friends)
[Zapata] I personally HATE tabs...
[mh] 2 spaces indent... and no lines longer than 80 chars?
[mh] in .vimrc :
[mh] set tabstob=2
[mh] set shiftwidth=2
[mh] set expandtab # makes tabs spaces
[mh] oops
[mh] set tabstop=2
[Zapata] 80 chars is a bit short for my coding style :-)
[mh] Zapata: *all* terminals are 80 chars
[mh] :) (I think I get the joke)
[br1] i like long method names ;)
[Zapata] br1: me too... but mh hates em...
[Zapata] mh: do you code on a terminal?
[mh] I like elegant method names... think unix
[mh] mv, cp, rm, mkdir.. everyone knows these shortcuts
[br1] hm... elegant like tar -xvzf ;)
[mh] the "r" in rsync is for remote, etc...
[Zapata] mh: I hate abbreviations...
[mh] ya TapeARchive
[Zapata] only people who are really into it can understand them...
[Zapata] and then only so many...
[Zapata] I like method names that are concise but clear...
[mh] Zapata: yes I use vi
[mh] yes conscice but clear.
[Zapata] hmmm
[Zapata] and abbreviations are often not clear... ofcourse there are obvious ones... but not many...
[mh] but if you have a declaration, it is redundant to do Servletcontext servletContext..
[mh] "ServletContext ctx" is better..
[Zapata] mh: I really disagree...
[Zapata] when I look at the code I don´t want to have to go back to the declarations all the time...
[mh] but you have memory :)
[Zapata] yeah, but I want to use my memory for other things :-)
[mh] ok ctx might be a littel extreme...
[Zapata] context would be ok...
[mh] but I think "Config" is reasonable instead of "Configuration"
[Zapata] ok, but if you really insist on using 80 columns vi, I´ll do my best to keep my code on your screen :-)
[mh] yes context is ok
[mh] ok cool :)
[Zapata] config is ok too...
[Zapata] :-)
[Zapata] and I will pick up config too, soon...
[mh] ah good
[Zapata] it´s just that palestine is really really important to me personally...
[mh] ok I want to go home now...
[Zapata] ok...
[br1] me to
[Zapata] ok...
[Zapata] who will post a log?
[john] have to go as well.....
Signoff: john (Client Exit: Leaving)
[br1] allright. ill post the log on mir.indymedia.de
[mh] cu
[Zapata] ok great...
[Zapata] c y´all...
[Zapata] and lets keep in touch...
Signoff: mh (Client Exit: Client Exiting)
[br1] have a nice evening
[Zapata] br1:
[br1] yup
[Zapata] shall we discuss producers overprivate mail coming days?
[Zapata] together with idefix?
[Zapata] and then come up with a detailed "design"...
[Zapata] to present to the others?
[br1] yes. lets do that. but i really think ist not much problem
[Zapata] no no, but there are other parts that are maybe difficult...
[Zapata] but I´ll explain :-)
[Zapata] anyway...
[Zapata] enjoy your evening...
[Zapata] we´ll mail...
[br1] ok. bye
[Zapata] bye!